http://pasteall.org/4877
* kaito has changed the topic to: Meeting time! Agenda?
<kaito> 1) current work 2) 2.5 3) 2.49 status 4) gsoc ?
<theeth> good
<DingTo> yep
Current projects
* kaito has changed the topic to: Meeting time! 1) Current projects
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<ben2610> ffmpeg 0.5 follow up: theeth, did you get confirmation that the patch you proposed works o
n big endian processor?
<theeth> nope
<theeth> any one with a big endian machine in here?
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<ben2610> :-(
<theeth> (the patch is in trunk already)
<ben2610> did you get comments from Peter?
<theeth> nope
<ben2610> I suggest we call for a confirmation
<Cheaterm1n> Are the bugs about updating GLSL lights/shadows fixed ? And shadows not showing up for
some lamp distances/resolution of shadbuf ? What is the version of the current trunk ? Is it safe to
use the current revision instead of stable versions ?
<theeth> alright, I'll post something on the ML
<DingTo> Cheaterm1n: please stay on topic
* kaito also makes mail to bf-committers with agenda points/discussions
<Cheaterm1n> DingTo: Aint this current ? :s
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<kaito> Cheaterm1n: we have once a week meeting, which is mostly for active devs on releases to coor
dinate tasks and work
<kaito> 'on topic' means related to official work on blender :)
<Cheaterm1n> Huh okay my bad I'll shut up a while and listen then :D
<kaito> it'll be over in hour or so :)
<DingTo> any other current project updates?
<Cheaterm1n> (I'm very interested in the 2 and 3 parts :D and don't remember what 4 means ^^")
<kaito> theeth: still need more follup reviews of definition of python api exception?
<kaito> follup?
* kaito deposits new word
<theeth> I'm ok with the last version of the text
<theeth> still nothing from the fsf?
<kaito> if the current definition i propose gives too much confusement, we should better update it i
n code as license exception
<kaito> no fsf sometimes is very slow :/
<kaito> i think they're also confused :)
<kaito> i did get something like 'if this stays within spirit of gnu gpl, and not to bypass it, we g
enerally are ok'
<kaito> but they had to look into it deeper :)
<Genscher> ogre3d also lately had to "concretize" the lgpl because of similiar problems :)
<kaito> then i contacted mozilla and had some exchanges about this 3d-on-web
<kaito> they rather first only do javascript ogl bindings
<kaito> nothing fancy or user level :)
<kaito> the first thing i got back from their main 3d honcho was "Are you the right person @ blender
to talk to about these kinds of issues? I'm wondering if you're the right person at blender to help
make that happen."
<kaito> :P
<Wahooney> kaito: They must have wanted to speak to one of your other personalities.
<DingTo> kaito: lol
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<dyf> do you guys think it's difficult for an old person to learn programming?
<kaito> it appeared they dont have 3d people there really, the press release was marketing blah most
ly
<dyf> i think i had the talent when i was young.. but i haven't done much of it until now (age of 27
)
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<dyf> and i don't think i'll get the hang of it
<theeth> kaito: ah ah! The mystery unravels
<kaito> dyf: it is meeting time for blender developers
<kaito> we stick to topic, come back in hour or so
<dyf> oh sorry
<dyf> i thought you were talking off topic
<dyf> delete my posts please
<kaito> no it was introduction to this;
<kaito> we still have an optional grant from dutch NLNet foundation for 3d web plugin
<kaito> i tried past 3 months to make this work with ogro, but it didn't result in plans
<kaito> well; unless i would coordinate it all, which i dont have time for really
<kaito> i could do official call for people to do it, but managing that will also take a lot of time
<kaito> reviewing proposals, discussing it, refining etc
<wirelessdreamer> kaito: does that translate into javascript bindings similar to the bge python bind
ings?
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<kaito> wirelessdreamer: no idea, afaik it's plain opengl wrapping
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<kaito> so issue is; who here really believes in future of BGE on the web?
<kaito> or shall we better postpone work on it...
<kaito> or; someone volunteers to take over coordinate work :)
<kaito> or; i'll post this in meeting minutes to get additional feedback?
<theeth> good idea
<wirelessdreamer> i'd gladly test, i code javascript daily, but I don't have the skill for backend w
ork
<wirelessdreamer> in c/c++
<kaito> wirelessdreamer: Blender game engine as web plugin is not related to javascript bindings
<wirelessdreamer> it would just be embedding a blend in a browser then?
<kaito> well no to the mozilla 3d project
<kaito> it has javascript calls to the plugin api yes, to do some input
<erwin_bullet> kaito: I'm working on something slightly related, a subset of the Blender game player
targetting iphone and PS3
<kaito> how?
<kaito> is this using the hownbrewn .blend reader? :)
<erwin_bullet> kaito: yesterday I finally extracted all the data I needed from a .blend file, includ
ing Objects, Meshes, Materials, Ipos, Physics data
<erwin_bullet> indeed, and it is working well.
<kaito> a BSD or MIT licensed .blend lib?
<erwin_bullet> yes, exclusively BSD/MIT/ZLib
<erwin_bullet> for graphics I plan to use irrlicht, which is also ZLib, and for physics Bullet
<kaito> interesting :)
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<erwin_bullet> for iphone it won't have python scripting, I think Apple forbids such scripting inter
preter. so graphical game logic will be needed for that
<kaito> is that official sony work?
<erwin_bullet> I love the .blend format by the way :)
<erwin_bullet> Sony lets me do what I want, so yes, I do this during working ours (not fulltime thou
gh)
<kaito> cool :)
<erwin_bullet> basically, I plan to use this to create demos for exhibitions and presentations I giv
e (GDC, SIGGRAPH etc)
<wirelessdreamer> erwin_bullet: any idea if sony would ever let free blender games on psn? ;)
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<kaito> cool you're welcome do demo on blender booth (nearly certain now)
<erwin_bullet> I've been showing Blender during a few presentations, to show some Bullet simulation,
and people are very suprised usually
<kaito> (siggraph)
<erwin_bullet> thanks. well, with Sony it takes a bit of time, but I think I'm going to add the .ble
nd reader into spubullet, which is on the Sony developers website :)
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<ben2610> erwin_bullet: will you use the logic bricks from logic or create new graphic logic data?
<erwin_bullet> I think I'll use the logic bricks indeed
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: there is a game competition ongoing, finishing the 16th. There is one entry
for "logic bricks only". It's quite impressive what you can do
<erwin_bullet> some of the underlying code was originally mine, before I joined NaN, such as the 'ex
pressions' library. I will have to rewrite quite a bit anyway for irrlicht
<erwin_bullet> yes, the dukduk is great.
<erwin_bullet> I'm also very impressed by someone called Cray, his portpolio is here: www.aandria.co
m
<kaito> erwin_bullet: some thoughts from you (on ML later is fine) about whether or not to pursue BG
E web player is welcome then too
<ben2610> cray is fantastic designer
<erwin_bullet> you can see his blog, he is working on a Blender game template
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<erwin_bullet> http://www.aandria.com/blog/
<erwin_bullet> I was thinking of including his template in the next Blender 2.49 BGE example/regress
ion files
<erwin_bullet> perhaps I'll organize another Blender game engine competitions, with the main task to
create reusable templates (some without python)
<ben2610> cool!
<erwin_bullet> I was looking in the .blend format, and noticed some influence from IFF, the EA Inter
change File Format.
<kaito> yep. amiga boys :)
<erwin_bullet> I've been thinking of adopting IFF for Bullet as binary fileformat, and did a lot of
looking into this
<erwin_bullet> I revived the original 1985 code for reading and writing IFF
<erwin_bullet> then I noticed that Lightwave LWO is also IFF...
<kaito> also amiga origins
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<erwin_bullet> (of course there are many IFF file format extensions, but I'm interested in the forma
ts used for 3d)
<erwin_bullet> yes, it is funny to see the Amiga origins, I used to have an Amiga 500
<kaito> ok; suggest to wrap up this point and move on
<erwin_bullet> but the SDNA idea is very important addition from Blender
<DingTo> 2.5 :-)
<erwin_bullet> SDNA for .blend is like a Schema for XML
<DingTo> >>>
<theeth> erwin_bullet: except better
<erwin_bullet> ok, I'll stop :)
<kaito> erwin_bullet: ah, you want to make a generic sdna iff format?
<ideasman_42> erwin_bullet, currently BGE crashes on assert(false) - that are scattered around
<erwin_bullet> I would love to have something like that, but unfortunately 'makesdna' is GPL, and do
esn't look trivial to recreate.
<ideasman_42> Should these be commented out?
<erwin_bullet> ideasman, which asserts?
<kaito> sdna has too many limits still for generic usage
<ideasman_42> ListValue.cpp CValue* CListValue::Calc
<erwin_bullet> usually if you hit asserts, something must ahve gone wrong.
<ideasman_42> assert(false); // todo: implement me!
<ideasman_42> yes, thaught that was it
<ideasman_42> but it seems a 'not yet implimented' error should not crash blender
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<erwin_bullet> ideasman: since when did this happen? did it assert in Blender 2.48a releases too?
* kaito suggests ideasman_42 talks to erwin_bullet in private further?
<erwin_bullet> ok
2.5 progress
* kaito has changed the topic to: Meeting time! 2) 2.5 progress
<ideasman_42> ah sorry, didnt realize it was the meeting
<ideasman_42> (daylight savings)
<kaito> did people notice the totally cool animated button flashy UI ? :)
<DingTo> yes
<DingTo> and the discussion...
<kaito> of course we'll make it more subtle :)
<kaito> but it's cool nevertheless
<DingTo> yep
<kaito> on bf-taskforce i posted todos for april
<kaito> its not easy to get help for such tasks, brecht and me have to complete some tasks first bef
ore others can jump in there too
<kaito> once i got toolbar/toolproperties region, operator work can come back
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* kaito has nothing more to mention on this point...
<kaito> apart from that april/may agenda for me is relatively clean, so can code more than in march
:)
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<Mystery> the menu highlights should be changed from blue back to the orange we have now, the blue i
s too bright and hurts the eyes
<Hypercrush> can help me
<theeth> that's going to be themable
<kaito> that's what themes are for Mystery :)
<Hypercrush> Linking program ==> 'blender'
<Hypercrush> /usr/bin/ld.real: cannot find -lu
<Genscher> Mystery, nope
<brecht> also, just want to mention there's still ways to help out outside of this UI work
<kaito> Hypercrush: its meeting time
<brecht> the mail with todos I posted is still valid ..
<Mystery> themeable shouldn't be an excuse for bad defaults!
<Genscher> Mystery, that will be made avilable through themes
<Hypercrush> sry
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<DingTo> Mystery: its early WIP
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<Mystery> i know, i'm putting it out there because it's a WIP
<Mystery> =]
<kaito> Mystery: at the moment i work based on design proposals from matt/william
<DingTo> why people always cry after the first WIP commit? :P
<Genscher> Mystery, it will stay blue!
<Genscher> nice contrast
<Mystery> bad contrast, very bad
<Genscher> Mystery, do you code? :P
<Mystery> it's like staring into a blue sun, honestly
<Mystery> yes, yes i do
<Mystery> just thought i'd mention it, sorry
<Genscher> nah :)
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<Mystery> i'm from the Save Our Eyes foundation ;P
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<Genscher> Mystery, me too and orange is cancer
<kaito> eeek!
* kaito stops color debate
<Genscher> Mystery, i love Ui debates
<Genscher> heeh :)
<kaito> so everyone look at brecht for todos!
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<kaito> also: vekoon has commitrights, and will assist brecht/ideasman on api topics
<blendedSheep> how is bdiego's text lib re-arranging going?
<kaito> yes good question i wanted to ask him too :)
<kaito> we have to wait for him, later
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<blendedSheep> ah, okay :)
2.49 status
* kaito has changed the topic to: Meeting time! 3) 2.49 status
<kaito> hoppa next!
<kaito> how's the GE team? happy? :)
<DingTo> and it's time for a schedule :-)
<erwin_bullet> fairly happy, I need to do a few more minor things, but no show stoppers on my side.
<DingTo> erwin_bullet: saw my 2 bugs in query?
<kaito> ben2610: the logic api?
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<erwin_bullet> DingTo: yeah, I'm happy with those bugs :)
* kaito pulls agenda
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<kaito> next week bcon4, svn freeze, bugfixes only, make RC1, publish that 15th
<DingTo> great
<theeth> ben2610: dome code is still in the plans for 2.49?
<kaito> then in 2 weeks sunday final review, and either do RC2 or real release?
<Cheaterm1n> :D
<DingTo> kaito: do we agree to make splash screen competition?
<kaito> oops yes
<ben2610> theeth: hope so, I received the final patch from dfelinto, I will definately review it thi
s week
<ben2610> API cleanup is nearly finished, 1 or 2 more weeks
<theeth> great
<kaito> DingTo: who announces this usually on ba.org?
<erwin_bullet> DingTo: I'll look into the soft body issues. It might be, because soft bodies got sel
f-collisions, when you enable clusters.
<DingTo> erwin_bullet: thank you
<DingTo> kaito: dont know who did the last ones
<erwin_bullet> DingTo: this should be a new advanced button, enable/disable self collision
<kaito> nevermind, i can :)
<DingTo> kaito: last comp was for 2.45 ;-)
<kaito> we have to define judges...
<kaito> i suggest blengine & venomgfx, the apricot artists
<DingTo> hehe, i am happy with that :-)
<kaito> typically pick is done by past contributors or judges of splash
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<DingTo> hey jahka :-)
<jahka> hey DingTo
<kaito> ben2610: ok; next sunday we talk again, but i'll announce on ML that we then expect the API
cleanup to be ready for a RC1 some days later ;)
<ben2610> ok
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: is there some release documentation for the API cleanup?
<kaito> @ all: make sure docs are available for work, notify me to make log on b.org
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: and do you have some .blend files for any new BGE features?
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: there is the PyDOc that we maintain
<kaito> i'll do a nice presentation
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: some wiki page?
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: yes
<kaito> but i need links to wiki or mails or whatever
<ben2610> let me find it
<ideasman_42> would be nice if the blender server did daily updates of the EPY docs
<erwin_bullet> kaito: I meant, usually there is kaito's overview, and then links to detailed info
<theeth> kaito: http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/User:Theeth/etch-a-ton
<ben2610> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/GameEngine/Python_API_Clean_Up
* kaito noted it :)
<DingTo> Hm quite some stuff for 2.49...hopefully the users dont find too many bugs in RC1...etch a
ton, ge, texture nodes....
<erwin_bullet> ben: will the render/video in texture go in 2.49?
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<kaito> yes of course
<DingTo> ^and that
<kaito> we need totally cool video demo vids!
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: yes, sure, it's in trunk for a long time already
<erwin_bullet> really? on all platforms?
<ben2610> yes
<ben2610> there is a long thread on BA about that
<kaito> video of video demo tutorial in video on a 3d plane
<erwin_bullet> would be good to include some .blend files in the regression files
<erwin_bullet> kaito: :-)
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: There is also a good but basic wiki, with a blend fiel:
<kaito> erwin_bullet: i do a call on ML for .blends
<ben2610> http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:Source/GameEngine/VideoTexture
<erwin_bullet> ben: ok, perhaps we can include that blend.
<ben2610> sure
<erwin_bullet> can it also do render in a texture?
<kaito> oh, the poor bug tracker...
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: yes
<erwin_bullet> (not a video, but a camera viewport, rendered )
<ben2610> and do mirrors automatically :-)
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: ah cool, is there some sample .blend for that?
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<ben2610> there is, but not on the wiki
<ben2610> you'll find cool demo on the BA thread:
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: we usually gather some .blend files for the download page regression files f
or the game engine
<ben2610> ok, I look what I have that can be used as decent regression file
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: so those video's can be embedded/packedfile too?
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: unfortunately n
<vekoon> hey
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<ben2610> the file is necessarily an external file, but it can be a file on web!
<vekoon> ouch a bit late..
<ben2610> (it can do web streaming)
<kaito> ok; i noted this all as todos on the meeting minutes
<kaito> just mail links to demos later to bf-committers as reply on minutes mail, easier for me
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<elubie> ben2610: Do you think OpenExr issue is important enough to fix in 2.49? Great find btw!
<ben2610> elubie: it doesn't seem to happen on trunk, probably because the offending log are off?
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: why can't it be a packedfile?
<ben2610> erwin_bullet: I just didn't implement that possibility
<elubie> ben2610: yes, the std::cout prints are commented out in trunk, but I wonder if that couldn'
t hit us anywhere else...
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: would be nice to implement it, all other data can be packed. Perhaps kaito c
an help with that?
<erwin_bullet> kaito: do you think it is a lot of work to allow packed files for those videos?
<ben2610> elubie: well, potentially any module doing std:cout << (integer) !!
<ben2610> elubie: it's worth doing a test to see if we get a crash
<kaito> coding movie file packing? no idea...
<elubie> ben2610: yes, exactly...
<kaito> erwin_bullet: it assumes that the player can read a file from memory
<ben2610> kaito: I would have to check but I'd guess that ffmpeg allows that
<kaito> packed data doesnt have to be unpacked to read
<erwin_bullet> kaito: the player can do that for all other data, such as images, sounds etc.
<elubie> ben2610: I'll check whether there are any std::cout later, maybe in elbeem?
<ben2610> however, video files can be very large
<kaito> an external file, reading //name.mov is OK i think
<theeth> ben2610: they'd take the same size whether packed on as an outside resource though
<kaito> relative path will solve it fine
<erwin_bullet> ben2610: well, it is up to the user to decide to pack or not
<schlaile> kaito: one can add fileio plugins to ffmpeg. Looks pretty straight forward (but haven't u
sed it though)
* kaito suggests to not do last minute features
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<erwin_bullet> ok, could be a future feature
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<erwin_bullet> can Blender load such video as a resource, and play it in one of its usual windows?
<PapaSmurf> yes.
<theeth> doesn't the play window only work on external files?
<kaito> we dont have 'internal movies' ?
<theeth> exactly
<kaito> anyhoo; too much meeting time for this already, nice to discuss anytime next week :)
<theeth> alright, next topic?
GSoC
* kaito has changed the topic to: Meeting time! 4) gsoc
<theeth> I'll post the current ordering of the proposals to our gsoc list
<theeth> then we can adjust that like we did last year
* kaito reminds people we can't discuss student submissions here :)
<theeth> people are ok with that?
<kaito> well as in do public reviews
<theeth> in our private gsoc mailing list, yes
<kaito> we cant say "i hate that aligorth"
<theeth> you just did
<kaito> damn!
<PapaSmurf> at some point we should review the "lessons learned" from last year's mentoring/gsoc
<ccherrett> PapaSmurf: I wonder if there are ways to get more of the work stable and into trunk this
year?
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<andrecastelo> can students request feedback here?
<kaito> anyhoo; schedule is not to review submissions on gocghop site
<kaito> *now
<kaito> students can reply there too
<theeth> kaito: yes, review there can still happen
<theeth> especially public comments
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<kaito> andrecastelo: best is to first post on gsoc website, and poke people here to feedback there
<andrecastelo> okay,
<theeth> but for deciding the final ordering of the proposals, we should do that on the ml, IMHO
<theeth> then it's by concensus
<andrecastelo> post on gsoc website = comment on the proposal?
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<kaito> yes
<theeth> and not, say, someone giving a 4 to all the python proposals
<kaito> yep :)
<kaito> i have no idea when google defines how many we get though
<kaito> http://socghop.appspot.com/document/show/program/google/gsoc2009/timeline
<kaito> timeline doesnt mention it
<andrecastelo> i guess april 15th
<kaito> i think we know in a few days?
<ideasman_42> theeth, who does that?
<theeth> ideasman_42: nobody this year
<kaito> andrecastelo: 15th the students have to be picked by us latest
<kaito> but then it's nicer to know how many slots we have :)
<elubie> I think I remember mail that they would be trying to give preliminary number towards the en
d of this week, but not final numbers
<theeth> I think so too
<andrecastelo> i hope blender gets 23 slots :)
<kaito> ok enough time then :)
<theeth> anyhow, I'll post the list of current proposals (with score >0) to the list, then people ca
n discuss
<theeth> comments to the students for chances or whatnot can go on the soc app
<elubie> Question now is whether we should increase our original request, which was 5 I think if
<elubie> I'm correct
<kaito> elubie: we can discuss also that on the gsoc mentor list :)
<elubie> yes, gsoc mentors list is fine :)
<theeth> google said they wanted to downsize a bit this year
<theeth> and we had 6 last year
<theeth> 5, I think, is reasonable
* kaito thinks gsoc is not good meeting topic until the decisions were done :)
<theeth> alright, lets finish that on ml
<kaito> well blender is now commonly known as a leading OS project!
<andrecastelo> problem with gsoc meeting is that it can't be discussed in irc :S
<theeth> only until final decision is taken
<theeth> then it's all ok once the final students are decided
<theeth> (and accepted by google0
<andrecastelo> can students expect comments regarding their chances of getting into top5?
<kaito> i doubt
<kaito> we never did this before
<theeth> we don't do that usually
<andrecastelo> okay
<kaito> when the proposal is insufficient, the reviews will say that though
<kaito> if we get enough slots it's easy, if we get only 1 or 2 it'll be hard
<kaito> google's money they decide ;)
<kaito> ok; meeting time over!?
<kaito> then everyone can talk about old men coding!
<erwin_bullet> haha :)
* kaito has changed the topic to: Sunday meetings 16h CEST, 14h UTC | please add a topic you would l
ike to be discussed at http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Dev:SundayMeetingAgenda
