Org:Foundation/Bf-education/Meetings/Logs/2005 December 18th
[18-12-05 15:56] <spiderworm> hi, Rui here?
[18-12-05 15:56] <mifune> nope
[18-12-05 15:57] <spiderworm> alright. can anybody tell me what this is all about? how does bf-education differ from bf-docboard ?
[18-12-05 15:58] <mifune> i think bf education is broader that just docs
[18-12-05 15:59] |<-- jefjan has left freenode ()
[18-12-05 16:01] <spiderworm> we had Rui from this group come and send bf-docboard a long email proposing a meeting to discuss major changes to the way blender documentation is written with a goal to improve the quality
[18-12-05 16:01] -->| jefjan (n=jefjan@d54C0E759.access.telenet.be) has joined #bfeducation
[18-12-05 16:01] <spiderworm> I'm trying to figure out just who Rui is, trying to see what sort of support he has from this group, and what this group's goals are all about...
[18-12-05 16:02] <mifune> well, i dont know exactely. im not really into this.
[18-12-05 16:02] <spiderworm> maybe jefjan or iaminnocent would know more?
[18-12-05 16:02] -->| rcas (n=rcas@84.90.7.33) has joined #bfeducation
[18-12-05 16:02] <mifune> well, there he is
[18-12-05 16:02] <rcas> hi
[18-12-05 16:02] <iaminnocent> not much more I'm afraid
[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> me = Rui Campos
[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> for anyone unaware
[18-12-05 16:03] <spiderworm> hi rcas
[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> :)
[18-12-05 16:03] <iaminnocent> Hello sir
[18-12-05 16:03] <spiderworm> I'm spiderworm, the guy that started Noob to Pro
[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> apparently you like my book?
[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> great
[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:04] <iaminnocent> spiderworm : great work
[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> I like the approach, it is very well conceived
[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> :) glad to hear it. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with a meeting being called for this morning....
[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> thank you iaminnocent and rcas :)
[18-12-05 16:05] <iaminnocent> me too
[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> I can explain
[18-12-05 16:05] <iaminnocent> go ahead
[18-12-05 16:05] <spiderworm> please do
[18-12-05 16:05] -->| |Osiris (n=Bas@212-127-167-11.cable.quicknet.nl) has joined #bfeducation
[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> I used this timming as it is the common timming for blender Devs to meet
[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> So I though it would be the best
[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> k
[18-12-05 16:06] <rcas> I started the bf-education discussion
[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> I'm kind a short on time. I have to leave within half an houd
[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> *hour
[18-12-05 16:06] <rcas> That has a somewhat different ideal from bf-docboard
[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> But both should work together
[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> interesting
[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> what's the process for starting a new blender mailing list, i wonder
[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> did you have to go through ton?
[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> kaito stated it
[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> shhh dont say his irc name :)
[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> bf-education focus more on education in it self
[18-12-05 16:08] <spiderworm> ok
[18-12-05 16:08] <iaminnocent> then, docs are just a mean to an end
[18-12-05 16:08] <spiderworm> sort of a broad scope around smaller projects like bf-docboard
[18-12-05 16:08] <rcas> it has what bf-docboard has been also doing
[18-12-05 16:08] <|Osiris> fyi I've just finished a Dutch project. I wrote a 95 pages counting tutorial book
[18-12-05 16:08] <rcas> mixing it with the Documentation
[18-12-05 16:09] <spiderworm> cool |Osiris
[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> you might want to look at it: http://blendercourse.basvdijk.nl
[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> It is some kind of standard layout I've developed
[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> did it as a school project
[18-12-05 16:09] <iaminnocent> rcas : what are you aiming at with this meetimg
[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> got great marks for it ;)
[18-12-05 16:09] <iaminnocent> Osiris : interesting
[18-12-05 16:10] <spiderworm> dayam that's some good art!
[18-12-05 16:10] <rcas> Now, my whole purpose for this meeting is to define further steps to take with the arrival of 2.40
[18-12-05 16:10] <spiderworm> you dutchies know what you're doing!
[18-12-05 16:10] <|Osiris> sorry for bringing this in so early but as I said quite short on time ;)
[18-12-05 16:10] <|Osiris> spiderworm, thnx
[18-12-05 16:10] <rcas> I don't want to stumble on bf-docboard stuff, but want to make a team to move with a new approach for the online Documentation
[18-12-05 16:11] <|Osiris> There is a whole filosophy behind Blender Course but I won't bother you with that ;)
[18-12-05 16:11] <spiderworm> rcas: I appreciate your enthusiasm but do you see that your approach came off as a little pretentious? bf-docboard doesnt know who you are
[18-12-05 16:11] <iaminnocent> Osiris : well you should at some moment, on your site maybe ?
[18-12-05 16:11] <rcas> What you want to know about, I will answer as much possible
[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> I started the education discussion back in 2004 Blender Conference
[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> And did a follow up at this year conference
[18-12-05 16:12] <spiderworm> probably a better approach would have been to talk to some of the head honchos around bf-docboard such as S68 and gotten them to call a meeting
[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> On a new approach for online education of Blender
[18-12-05 16:12] <mifune> sadly i missed that
[18-12-05 16:13] <iaminnocent> first define what's *your* mission
[18-12-05 16:13] <spiderworm> yeah, me to. amsterdam is way out of my financial reach right now
[18-12-05 16:13] <rcas> iaminnocent: Build a online dbase for Blender education
[18-12-05 16:14] <mifune> well, i was there, but i listened to something else
[18-12-05 16:14] <rcas> iaminnocent: with Videos and written text
[18-12-05 16:14] <rcas> go beyond the current bf-docboard
[18-12-05 16:14] <iaminnocent> I understand it 'education' refers to introducing Blender in schools and college no ?
[18-12-05 16:14] <spiderworm> rcas: here's my take on all this: you're absolutely right on that blender documentation needs some serious help.... needs a better flow, needs a lot of improvement...
[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> My intention is to start with the differences that came with 2.40
[18-12-05 16:15] <spiderworm> rcas: you're also absolutely right that we need to schedule regular meetings (tho we'll do it in #blenderwiki) so the authors can get together and we can talk strategy
[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> iaminnocent: also, focused on building this documentation for schools to use
[18-12-05 16:15] <spiderworm> rcas: also get authors fired up and what not
[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> yes, I agree on that
[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> This meeting is a startup
[18-12-05 16:16] <jefjan> oke
[18-12-05 16:16] <rcas> to push things forward from bf-education point of view
[18-12-05 16:16] <|Osiris> as soon as 2.40 will be realesed I immediately start checking Blender Course screenshots and commands so it will be up to date...
[18-12-05 16:16] <spiderworm> rcas: the major problem is we need buy in from S68 who has disappeared for a brief time....
[18-12-05 16:16] <rcas> from bf-docboard it has started long time ago
[18-12-05 16:16] <mifune> |Osiris: the changes arent big
[18-12-05 16:16] <mifune> at least for your tut
[18-12-05 16:16] <|Osiris> the screenshots might
[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> and installation etc
[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> the 2.37 will do
[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> but I want to be updated ;)
[18-12-05 16:17] <mifune> unless they change the theme it will be the same
[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> e need buy in from S68 ?
[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> "we need buy in from S68 ?"
[18-12-05 16:17] <spiderworm> we really can't and shouldn't be calling impromptu meetings unless S68 is no longer working on the project
[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> I proposed a change on the theme and layout
[18-12-05 16:18] <spiderworm> yes, we need buy-in for major changes, we need to let him be the boss
[18-12-05 16:18] <rcas> for the book itself you mean ?
[18-12-05 16:18] <iaminnocent> S68 can be the boss of bf-doc no problem
[18-12-05 16:19] <iaminnocent> what we need is coordination
[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:19] <spiderworm> not just for the book, but also policy changes, such as having official or unofficial meetings and the like....
[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> That is what I wanted to start with this meeting
[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> Not meaning everyone could be here
[18-12-05 16:19] <iaminnocent> All right then
[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> But just have a kick start with this
[18-12-05 16:20] <spiderworm> we haven't had a meeting that I know of, official or otherwise, and it just feels like S68 should be rallying us together, not some new guy named Rui
[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> And define some priorities to get this going from now on
[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> With bf-education on the road too
[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> If you feel like it
[18-12-05 16:20] <iaminnocent> rcas did you read about the restructuration proposal on docboard ?
[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I am writing a proposal also
[18-12-05 16:21] <spiderworm> rcas: let me try to get ahold of S68. I have a few resources... maybe I can get him onboard for a meeting next Sunday
[18-12-05 16:21] <iaminnocent> spiderworm : we greatly needed fresh blood en enthousiam too
[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> And will focus on it
[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I have been on this issue for almost a year and a half now
[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I am aware of many things related to this
[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> iaminnocent: agreed. I invite you to squander your enthusiasm on my wiki sub project: http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Books/Blender_3D:_Go_Pro%21
[18-12-05 16:22] <rcas> But I also understand you need some person you already know of
[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> rcas: you can also squander your enthusiasm on my sub project
[18-12-05 16:22] <rcas> spiderworm: there is much scattered information around, we should definetly build a common base for this
[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> rcas: give me a little time... I think I can get in touch with him
[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> that would be great
[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> I don't want to be anyones boss
[18-12-05 16:23] <spiderworm> rcas: scattered information is what we want, but we also need a couple of "blender bibles"
[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> Just help this move forward
[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> I provide ideas and possible ways to move forward and hope you all do the same thing
[18-12-05 16:24] <iaminnocent> rcas : it does help
[18-12-05 16:24] <|Osiris> Another point is there is no central point for tutorials...or where you can post them. Blenderartist.org seems to aim at this point...
[18-12-05 16:24] <iaminnocent> rcas go ahead with your proposal on docboard
[18-12-05 16:24] <rcas> yes, that is my idea, BlenderArtists
[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> it is Great thought still in development
[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> I will do that, will post to bf-education and bf-docboard
[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> |Osiris: that is the best
[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> and probably need to split up the tutorial section into multiple languages
[18-12-05 16:25] <iaminnocent> I think that we need a place to mirror tutorials not control them
[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> |Osiris: since we can also help building it as we see fit
[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> so a Dutchman can look under Dutch
[18-12-05 16:26] <|Osiris> German under German etc
[18-12-05 16:26] <rcas> I believe we should restructure every tutorial we see fits our needs and add it in the DOcumentation
[18-12-05 16:26] <rcas> like what happens with bf-commiters mailing list
[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> people send patches
[18-12-05 16:27] <iaminnocent> rcas the form is often the message itself
[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> and some coders reviews them and adds it to the code
[18-12-05 16:27] <iaminnocent> see my (somewhat old) tutorials to see what I mean
[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> ok
[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> patches system is a repellent
[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> we had a cvs in docboard
[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> I wanted no part of it
[18-12-05 16:28] <rcas> If rules are made for it, it can work
[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> it can work if it is simple to use
[18-12-05 16:29] <iaminnocent> very simple
[18-12-05 16:29] <iaminnocent> like a wiki ;)
[18-12-05 16:29] <rcas> I can help on that issue
[18-12-05 16:29] <spiderworm> :D
[18-12-05 16:29] <rcas> I am a coder fulltime
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> meaning I can also code stuff to help things easier
[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> people I got to go...If there is anything related to Blender Course feel free to mail me at blendercourse@gmail.com
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> ok |Osiris
[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> sorry
[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> maybe next time
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> no problem
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> I subscribed to the newsletter ;)
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> I will propose a meeting time
[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> Will there be any minutes about this meeting?
[18-12-05 16:30] <spiderworm> well all I'll be afk for a little but I will hopefully hear back on the status of S68 soon and will let you know, rcas, ASAP...
[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> on both lists
[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> ok, thanks spiderworm
[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: I will do them for now
[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> thnx
[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> how can I receive them?
[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: we can then choose people to do next meeting and so forth
[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> k
[18-12-05 16:31] <iaminnocent> By email ?
[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> ok
[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: will post to both lists
[18-12-05 16:32] <|Osiris> ttyl
[18-12-05 16:32] |<-- jefjan has left freenode ()
[18-12-05 16:32] <iaminnocent> My feeling is that for in depth discussions
[18-12-05 16:32] <iaminnocent> the mailing lists would be better.
[18-12-05 16:33] <iaminnocent> Or a meeting on a well defined question and one only
[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> So, one item we can call it done is : We must have a weekly meeting
[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> I agree on that
[18-12-05 16:33] <iaminnocent> yes ;)
[18-12-05 16:33] <mifune> meetings are very important
[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> use wiki like this http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/SundayMeetingAgenda
[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> and keep things there
[18-12-05 16:34] -->| jefjan (n=jefjan@d54C0E759.access.telenet.be) has joined #bfeducation
[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> keep the agenda there and the minutes
[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> This is a great central point for it
[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> I will possibly do this one there
[18-12-05 16:35] <iaminnocent> good idea
[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> rcas : try to read Glen's proposal
[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> I think that he's on to something as fas as education goes
[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> with his stucture
[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> cross referencing between tutorials
[18-12-05 16:37] <rcas> great
[18-12-05 16:37] <rcas> will do that
[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> and the doc and all
[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> education institution will love a bare bone reference
[18-12-05 16:38] <iaminnocent> I'd be the fastest to keep up to date
[18-12-05 16:38] <iaminnocent> everything else, especially tutorial could flow form there
[18-12-05 16:38] <rcas> bf-education is focused more on the whole movement and bf-docboard is one of the items
[18-12-05 16:39] <rcas> I think we should define the purpose of each one in a next meeting
[18-12-05 16:39] <rcas> making things well defined
[18-12-05 16:39] <iaminnocent> I like to find a mission statement for education
[18-12-05 16:39] <iaminnocent> and also for docboard
[18-12-05 16:40] <iaminnocent> I see no harm into leaving the tutorials to Noob2Pro
[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> yes, education institutions will love it, but we should keep a focus on keeping a global education workflow for Blender
[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> meaning it is though the same way around the globe
[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> In order for a future Certification program
[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> oh !
[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> that ambitious you are... :)
[18-12-05 16:41] <rcas> I see Noob 2 Pro as a starting point for a new approach in Blender Documentation
[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> I see Noob2Pro full of tutorials
[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> For one year and a half now that I proposed that aim for the future of Blender education
[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:42] <iaminnocent> but we need something for the pro who migrates
[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> I meant in the way they are written and how the index is made
[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> the naming also makes it fun to take a look
[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> yes, indead
[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Sure
[18-12-05 16:43] <rcas> we must make a compromise between both
[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Pros don't like to stumble on tutorials
[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Compromise ?
[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> I think we can complete each other
[18-12-05 16:43] <rcas> yes, not make it feel like tutorials, but at the same time not make it feel like a boring PRO reading
[18-12-05 16:44] <rcas> yes, that is what I meant with compromise
[18-12-05 16:44] <jefjan> there is a lot of difference between a pro's manual , reference and education tutorials.
[18-12-05 16:44] <iaminnocent> I read textbooks like others Harry Potter
[18-12-05 16:44] <iaminnocent> jefjan yes
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> that's where Glen's proposal is so interesting
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> Three different parts
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> theory of 3D
[18-12-05 16:45] <jefjan> there is a need here to set standards for co-working on this different tasks i think
[18-12-05 16:45] <rcas> iaminnocent: I think he has a proposal similar to mine
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> exemplified reference
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> and tutorials
[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> rcas : good then
[18-12-05 16:46] <iaminnocent> jefjan : right
[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> the heart to Glend' proposal I think is that each book would keep the same structure
[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> chapters and all
[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> and that cross referencing would flow from source
[18-12-05 16:47] <jefjan> good start
[18-12-05 16:48] <jefjan> where do I find Glends proposal, sorry rathet new ... not in education
[18-12-05 16:48] <iaminnocent> jefjan : in the recent (december) archives of bf-docboard
[18-12-05 16:48] <jefjan> ok thanks
[18-12-05 16:49] <jefjan> are on my desk
[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> BTW I'm just going through N2Pro and loving it.
[18-12-05 16:50] <jefjan> have to go grand children are calling, hope for a positive result bye
[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> Well, that'll be it for me too
[18-12-05 16:50] <rcas> ok
[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> This is Sunday after all.
[18-12-05 16:50] <rcas> yes
[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> Nice meeting you.
[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> I just wanted to get one feedback from all of you
[18-12-05 16:51] <iaminnocent> which is ?
[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> This meeting we decided that bf-education and bf-docboard should work together in the near future
[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> And that meetings for this should happen weekly
[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> I think I summed up things right
[18-12-05 16:52] <iaminnocent> and Noob2Pro too
[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> This was just a small meeting to get this going
[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> Yes, that was mentioned earlier on the bf-education but I will point it out too
[18-12-05 16:52] <iaminnocent> I'm glad you came by docboard Ruis
[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> Me too, I think we can make this a sucess
[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> we needed some action
[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> great
[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Sure, success is good :)
[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Have to go now.
[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Bye everyone.
[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> I will declare this meeting at end now, but we can discuss thing further
[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> Bye
[18-12-05 16:53] <--| iaminnocent has left #bfeducation