Org:Foundation/Bf-education/Meetings/Logs/2005 December 18th

[18-12-05 15:56] <spiderworm> hi, Rui here?

[18-12-05 15:56] <mifune> nope

[18-12-05 15:57] <spiderworm> alright. can anybody tell me what this is all about? how does bf-education differ from bf-docboard ?

[18-12-05 15:58] <mifune> i think bf education is broader that just docs

[18-12-05 15:59] |<-- jefjan has left freenode ()

[18-12-05 16:01] <spiderworm> we had Rui from this group come and send bf-docboard a long email proposing a meeting to discuss major changes to the way blender documentation is written with a goal to improve the quality

[18-12-05 16:01] -->| jefjan (n=jefjan@d54C0E759.access.telenet.be) has joined #bfeducation

[18-12-05 16:01] <spiderworm> I'm trying to figure out just who Rui is, trying to see what sort of support he has from this group, and what this group's goals are all about...

[18-12-05 16:02] <mifune> well, i dont know exactely. im not really into this.

[18-12-05 16:02] <spiderworm> maybe jefjan or iaminnocent would know more?

[18-12-05 16:02] -->| rcas (n=rcas@84.90.7.33) has joined #bfeducation

[18-12-05 16:02] <mifune> well, there he is

[18-12-05 16:02] <rcas> hi

[18-12-05 16:02] <iaminnocent> not much more I'm afraid

[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> me = Rui Campos

[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> for anyone unaware

[18-12-05 16:03] <spiderworm> hi rcas

[18-12-05 16:03] <rcas> :)

[18-12-05 16:03] <iaminnocent> Hello sir

[18-12-05 16:03] <spiderworm> I'm spiderworm, the guy that started Noob to Pro

[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> apparently you like my book?

[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> great

[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:04] <iaminnocent> spiderworm : great work

[18-12-05 16:04] <rcas> I like the approach, it is very well conceived

[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> :) glad to hear it. I'm trying to figure out what's going on with a meeting being called for this morning....

[18-12-05 16:04] <spiderworm> thank you iaminnocent and rcas :)

[18-12-05 16:05] <iaminnocent> me too

[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> I can explain

[18-12-05 16:05] <iaminnocent> go ahead

[18-12-05 16:05] <spiderworm> please do

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[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> I used this timming as it is the common timming for blender Devs to meet

[18-12-05 16:05] <rcas> So I though it would be the best

[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> k

[18-12-05 16:06] <rcas> I started the bf-education discussion

[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> I'm kind a short on time. I have to leave within half an houd

[18-12-05 16:06] <|Osiris> *hour

[18-12-05 16:06] <rcas> That has a somewhat different ideal from bf-docboard

[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> But both should work together

[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> interesting

[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> what's the process for starting a new blender mailing list, i wonder

[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> did you have to go through ton?

[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> kaito stated it

[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:07] <spiderworm> shhh dont say his irc name :)

[18-12-05 16:07] <rcas> bf-education focus more on education in it self

[18-12-05 16:08] <spiderworm> ok

[18-12-05 16:08] <iaminnocent> then, docs are just a mean to an end

[18-12-05 16:08] <spiderworm> sort of a broad scope around smaller projects like bf-docboard

[18-12-05 16:08] <rcas> it has what bf-docboard has been also doing

[18-12-05 16:08] <|Osiris> fyi I've just finished a Dutch project. I wrote a 95 pages counting tutorial book

[18-12-05 16:08] <rcas> mixing it with the Documentation

[18-12-05 16:09] <spiderworm> cool |Osiris

[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> you might want to look at it: http://blendercourse.basvdijk.nl

[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> It is some kind of standard layout I've developed

[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> did it as a school project

[18-12-05 16:09] <iaminnocent> rcas : what are you aiming at with this meetimg

[18-12-05 16:09] <|Osiris> got great marks for it ;)

[18-12-05 16:09] <iaminnocent> Osiris : interesting

[18-12-05 16:10] <spiderworm> dayam that's some good art!

[18-12-05 16:10] <rcas> Now, my whole purpose for this meeting is to define further steps to take with the arrival of 2.40

[18-12-05 16:10] <spiderworm> you dutchies know what you're doing!

[18-12-05 16:10] <|Osiris> sorry for bringing this in so early but as I said quite short on time ;)

[18-12-05 16:10] <|Osiris> spiderworm, thnx

[18-12-05 16:10] <rcas> I don't want to stumble on bf-docboard stuff, but want to make a team to move with a new approach for the online Documentation

[18-12-05 16:11] <|Osiris> There is a whole filosophy behind Blender Course but I won't bother you with that ;)

[18-12-05 16:11] <spiderworm> rcas: I appreciate your enthusiasm but do you see that your approach came off as a little pretentious? bf-docboard doesnt know who you are

[18-12-05 16:11] <iaminnocent> Osiris : well you should at some moment, on your site maybe ?

[18-12-05 16:11] <rcas> What you want to know about, I will answer as much possible

[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> I started the education discussion back in 2004 Blender Conference

[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> And did a follow up at this year conference

[18-12-05 16:12] <spiderworm> probably a better approach would have been to talk to some of the head honchos around bf-docboard such as S68 and gotten them to call a meeting

[18-12-05 16:12] <rcas> On a new approach for online education of Blender

[18-12-05 16:12] <mifune> sadly i missed that

[18-12-05 16:13] <iaminnocent> first define what's *your* mission

[18-12-05 16:13] <spiderworm> yeah, me to. amsterdam is way out of my financial reach right now

[18-12-05 16:13] <rcas> iaminnocent: Build a online dbase for Blender education

[18-12-05 16:14] <mifune> well, i was there, but i listened to something else

[18-12-05 16:14] <rcas> iaminnocent: with Videos and written text

[18-12-05 16:14] <rcas> go beyond the current bf-docboard

[18-12-05 16:14] <iaminnocent> I understand it 'education' refers to introducing Blender in schools and college no ?

[18-12-05 16:14] <spiderworm> rcas: here's my take on all this: you're absolutely right on that blender documentation needs some serious help.... needs a better flow, needs a lot of improvement...

[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> My intention is to start with the differences that came with 2.40

[18-12-05 16:15] <spiderworm> rcas: you're also absolutely right that we need to schedule regular meetings (tho we'll do it in #blenderwiki) so the authors can get together and we can talk strategy

[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> iaminnocent: also, focused on building this documentation for schools to use

[18-12-05 16:15] <spiderworm> rcas: also get authors fired up and what not

[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> yes, I agree on that

[18-12-05 16:15] <rcas> This meeting is a startup

[18-12-05 16:16] <jefjan> oke

[18-12-05 16:16] <rcas> to push things forward from bf-education point of view

[18-12-05 16:16] <|Osiris> as soon as 2.40 will be realesed I immediately start checking Blender Course screenshots and commands so it will be up to date...

[18-12-05 16:16] <spiderworm> rcas: the major problem is we need buy in from S68 who has disappeared for a brief time....

[18-12-05 16:16] <rcas> from bf-docboard it has started long time ago

[18-12-05 16:16] <mifune> |Osiris: the changes arent big

[18-12-05 16:16] <mifune> at least for your tut

[18-12-05 16:16] <|Osiris> the screenshots might

[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> and installation etc

[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> the 2.37 will do

[18-12-05 16:17] <|Osiris> but I want to be updated ;)

[18-12-05 16:17] <mifune> unless they change the theme it will be the same

[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> e need buy in from S68 ?

[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> "we need buy in from S68 ?"

[18-12-05 16:17] <spiderworm> we really can't and shouldn't be calling impromptu meetings unless S68 is no longer working on the project

[18-12-05 16:17] <rcas> I proposed a change on the theme and layout

[18-12-05 16:18] <spiderworm> yes, we need buy-in for major changes, we need to let him be the boss

[18-12-05 16:18] <rcas> for the book itself you mean ?

[18-12-05 16:18] <iaminnocent> S68 can be the boss of bf-doc no problem

[18-12-05 16:19] <iaminnocent> what we need is coordination

[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:19] <spiderworm> not just for the book, but also policy changes, such as having official or unofficial meetings and the like....

[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> That is what I wanted to start with this meeting

[18-12-05 16:19] <rcas> Not meaning everyone could be here

[18-12-05 16:19] <iaminnocent> All right then

[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> But just have a kick start with this

[18-12-05 16:20] <spiderworm> we haven't had a meeting that I know of, official or otherwise, and it just feels like S68 should be rallying us together, not some new guy named Rui

[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> And define some priorities to get this going from now on

[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> With bf-education on the road too

[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> If you feel like it

[18-12-05 16:20] <iaminnocent> rcas did you read about the restructuration proposal on docboard ?

[18-12-05 16:20] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I am writing a proposal also

[18-12-05 16:21] <spiderworm> rcas: let me try to get ahold of S68. I have a few resources... maybe I can get him onboard for a meeting next Sunday

[18-12-05 16:21] <iaminnocent> spiderworm : we greatly needed fresh blood en enthousiam too

[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> And will focus on it

[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I have been on this issue for almost a year and a half now

[18-12-05 16:21] <rcas> I am aware of many things related to this

[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> iaminnocent: agreed. I invite you to squander your enthusiasm on my wiki sub project: http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/Books/Blender_3D:_Go_Pro%21

[18-12-05 16:22] <rcas> But I also understand you need some person you already know of

[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> rcas: you can also squander your enthusiasm on my sub project

[18-12-05 16:22] <rcas> spiderworm: there is much scattered information around, we should definetly build a common base for this

[18-12-05 16:22] <spiderworm> rcas: give me a little time... I think I can get in touch with him

[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> that would be great

[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> I don't want to be anyones boss

[18-12-05 16:23] <spiderworm> rcas: scattered information is what we want, but we also need a couple of "blender bibles"

[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> Just help this move forward

[18-12-05 16:23] <rcas> I provide ideas and possible ways to move forward and hope you all do the same thing

[18-12-05 16:24] <iaminnocent> rcas : it does help

[18-12-05 16:24] <|Osiris> Another point is there is no central point for tutorials...or where you can post them. Blenderartist.org seems to aim at this point...

[18-12-05 16:24] <iaminnocent> rcas go ahead with your proposal on docboard

[18-12-05 16:24] <rcas> yes, that is my idea, BlenderArtists

[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> it is Great thought still in development

[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> I will do that, will post to bf-education and bf-docboard

[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> |Osiris: that is the best

[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> and probably need to split up the tutorial section into multiple languages

[18-12-05 16:25] <iaminnocent> I think that we need a place to mirror tutorials not control them

[18-12-05 16:25] <rcas> |Osiris: since we can also help building it as we see fit

[18-12-05 16:25] <|Osiris> so a Dutchman can look under Dutch

[18-12-05 16:26] <|Osiris> German under German etc

[18-12-05 16:26] <rcas> I believe we should restructure every tutorial we see fits our needs and add it in the DOcumentation

[18-12-05 16:26] <rcas> like what happens with bf-commiters mailing list

[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> people send patches

[18-12-05 16:27] <iaminnocent> rcas the form is often the message itself

[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> and some coders reviews them and adds it to the code

[18-12-05 16:27] <iaminnocent> see my (somewhat old) tutorials to see what I mean

[18-12-05 16:27] <rcas> ok

[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> patches system is a repellent

[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> we had a cvs in docboard

[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> I wanted no part of it

[18-12-05 16:28] <rcas> If rules are made for it, it can work

[18-12-05 16:28] <iaminnocent> it can work if it is simple to use

[18-12-05 16:29] <iaminnocent> very simple

[18-12-05 16:29] <iaminnocent> like a wiki ;)

[18-12-05 16:29] <rcas> I can help on that issue

[18-12-05 16:29] <spiderworm> :D

[18-12-05 16:29] <rcas> I am a coder fulltime

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> meaning I can also code stuff to help things easier

[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> people I got to go...If there is anything related to Blender Course feel free to mail me at blendercourse@gmail.com

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> ok |Osiris

[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> sorry

[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> maybe next time

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> no problem

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> I subscribed to the newsletter ;)

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> I will propose a meeting time

[18-12-05 16:30] <|Osiris> Will there be any minutes about this meeting?

[18-12-05 16:30] <spiderworm> well all I'll be afk for a little but I will hopefully hear back on the status of S68 soon and will let you know, rcas, ASAP...

[18-12-05 16:30] <rcas> on both lists

[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> ok, thanks spiderworm

[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: I will do them for now

[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> thnx

[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> how can I receive them?

[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: we can then choose people to do next meeting and so forth

[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> k

[18-12-05 16:31] <iaminnocent> By email ?

[18-12-05 16:31] <|Osiris> ok

[18-12-05 16:31] <rcas> |Osiris: will post to both lists

[18-12-05 16:32] <|Osiris> ttyl

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[18-12-05 16:32] <iaminnocent> My feeling is that for in depth discussions

[18-12-05 16:32] <iaminnocent> the mailing lists would be better.

[18-12-05 16:33] <iaminnocent> Or a meeting on a well defined question and one only

[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> So, one item we can call it done is : We must have a weekly meeting

[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> I agree on that

[18-12-05 16:33] <iaminnocent> yes ;)

[18-12-05 16:33] <mifune> meetings are very important

[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> use wiki like this http://mediawiki.blender.org/index.php/BlenderDev/SundayMeetingAgenda

[18-12-05 16:33] <rcas> and keep things there

[18-12-05 16:34] -->| jefjan (n=jefjan@d54C0E759.access.telenet.be) has joined #bfeducation

[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> keep the agenda there and the minutes

[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> This is a great central point for it

[18-12-05 16:35] <rcas> I will possibly do this one there

[18-12-05 16:35] <iaminnocent> good idea

[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> rcas : try to read Glen's proposal

[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> I think that he's on to something as fas as education goes

[18-12-05 16:36] <iaminnocent> with his stucture

[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> cross referencing between tutorials

[18-12-05 16:37] <rcas> great

[18-12-05 16:37] <rcas> will do that

[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> and the doc and all

[18-12-05 16:37] <iaminnocent> education institution will love a bare bone reference

[18-12-05 16:38] <iaminnocent> I'd be the fastest to keep up to date

[18-12-05 16:38] <iaminnocent> everything else, especially tutorial could flow form there

[18-12-05 16:38] <rcas> bf-education is focused more on the whole movement and bf-docboard is one of the items

[18-12-05 16:39] <rcas> I think we should define the purpose of each one in a next meeting

[18-12-05 16:39] <rcas> making things well defined

[18-12-05 16:39] <iaminnocent> I like to find a mission statement for education

[18-12-05 16:39] <iaminnocent> and also for docboard

[18-12-05 16:40] <iaminnocent> I see no harm into leaving the tutorials to Noob2Pro

[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> yes, education institutions will love it, but we should keep a focus on keeping a global education workflow for Blender

[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> meaning it is though the same way around the globe

[18-12-05 16:40] <rcas> In order for a future Certification program

[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> oh !

[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> that ambitious you are... :)

[18-12-05 16:41] <rcas> I see Noob 2 Pro as a starting point for a new approach in Blender Documentation

[18-12-05 16:41] <iaminnocent> I see Noob2Pro full of tutorials

[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> For one year and a half now that I proposed that aim for the future of Blender education

[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:42] <iaminnocent> but we need something for the pro who migrates

[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> I meant in the way they are written and how the index is made

[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> the naming also makes it fun to take a look

[18-12-05 16:42] <rcas> yes, indead

[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Sure

[18-12-05 16:43] <rcas> we must make a compromise between both

[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Pros don't like to stumble on tutorials

[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> Compromise ?

[18-12-05 16:43] <iaminnocent> I think we can complete each other

[18-12-05 16:43] <rcas> yes, not make it feel like tutorials, but at the same time not make it feel like a boring PRO reading

[18-12-05 16:44] <rcas> yes, that is what I meant with compromise

[18-12-05 16:44] <jefjan> there is a lot of difference between a pro's manual , reference and education tutorials.

[18-12-05 16:44] <iaminnocent> I read textbooks like others Harry Potter

[18-12-05 16:44] <iaminnocent> jefjan yes

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> that's where Glen's proposal is so interesting

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> Three different parts

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> theory of 3D

[18-12-05 16:45] <jefjan> there is a need here to set standards for co-working on this different tasks i think

[18-12-05 16:45] <rcas> iaminnocent: I think he has a proposal similar to mine

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> exemplified reference

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> and tutorials

[18-12-05 16:45] <iaminnocent> rcas : good then

[18-12-05 16:46] <iaminnocent> jefjan : right

[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> the heart to Glend' proposal I think is that each book would keep the same structure

[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> chapters and all

[18-12-05 16:47] <iaminnocent> and that cross referencing would flow from source

[18-12-05 16:47] <jefjan> good start

[18-12-05 16:48] <jefjan> where do I find Glends proposal, sorry rathet new ... not in education

[18-12-05 16:48] <iaminnocent> jefjan : in the recent (december) archives of bf-docboard

[18-12-05 16:48] <jefjan> ok thanks

[18-12-05 16:49] <jefjan> are on my desk

[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> BTW I'm just going through N2Pro and loving it.

[18-12-05 16:50] <jefjan> have to go grand children are calling, hope for a positive result bye

[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> Well, that'll be it for me too

[18-12-05 16:50] <rcas> ok

[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> This is Sunday after all.

[18-12-05 16:50] <rcas> yes

[18-12-05 16:50] <iaminnocent> Nice meeting you.

[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> I just wanted to get one feedback from all of you

[18-12-05 16:51] <iaminnocent> which is ?

[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> This meeting we decided that bf-education and bf-docboard should work together in the near future

[18-12-05 16:51] <rcas> And that meetings for this should happen weekly

[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> I think I summed up things right

[18-12-05 16:52] <iaminnocent> and Noob2Pro too

[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> This was just a small meeting to get this going

[18-12-05 16:52] <rcas> Yes, that was mentioned earlier on the bf-education but I will point it out too

[18-12-05 16:52] <iaminnocent> I'm glad you came by docboard Ruis

[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> Me too, I think we can make this a sucess

[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> we needed some action

[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> great

[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Sure, success is good :)

[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Have to go now.

[18-12-05 16:53] <iaminnocent> Bye everyone.

[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> I will declare this meeting at end now, but we can discuss thing further

[18-12-05 16:53] <rcas> Bye

[18-12-05 16:53] <--| iaminnocent has left #bfeducation